Personality Testing
I have just been reading a very interesting book about employment and Asperger syndrome.
I am also currently working with a University here in the UK to put together a programme to assist students to successfully make the transition into the world of work.
The University Careers service has suggested that, as part of the proposed programme, we use the Myers-Briggs personality test. I undertook this a long time ago and was classified as an INTJ (Intuitive, Thinking, Judging) person. I have always thought that this insight was very useful.
The book I am reading however says that Myers-Briggs type personality testing should not be used for people with AS. The reason for this being that they do not - and are incapable of - taking into account the unique facets of the Asperger character. They are, therefore, potentially as damaging as they are of assisting!
I was wondering if anyone had any views on this or experience of traditional personality tests being used in an Asperger context?
Career counselling for adults
My father's sent me the results of a google search on "career counselling for adults". I've had a look at Career Analysts in London, but I'm not at all sure which of their programmes would be most appropriate for me. And they're all quite expensive.
http://www.careeranalysts.co.uk/products-page
Yes and No
I've done Meyers-Briggs and used the online Kiersey temperament sorter, which is based on MB. At first blush I like them and felt they were at least insightful if not immediately useful in a tangible way. What I've discovered after learning about my AS is that the result I got on either of them wasn't an indication of my "nature" (as I believe the test is supposed to assess) as it was an indication of what I had over time trained myself to become... sort of... When I was very young I made a semi-conscious decision to become extroverted, in spite of having such extreme social phobia that the simple act of purchasing a candy bar at a convenience store gave me the shakes because I'd have to talk to the clerk behind the counter to buy it.
I think I had realized partly subconsciously that I wasn't going to be able to function or do many of the things I might want to do if I didn't force myself to learn to be more outgoing. And in retrospect probably several adults had told me that and I simply don't remember those conversations.
The upshot is that when asked questions about "would you prefer to go to the library or go to a party", I make a calculated decision that I "prefer the party" when the reality is that I don't prefer the party, I prefer the library, but I go to the party anyway because I know that the party offers me more opportunities to do what I do worst - network. ;)
I say that jokingly, but it's true... I have desperately needed better networking skills for years and just haven't seemed to have been able to develop them, but I still work at it partly precisely because I know it's still a challenge. If networking were easy for me, I wouldn't worry about it or bother.
The downside in the context of something like meyers-briggs is that because I don't remember the question being phrased like "If you had no ulterior motives for going to a party or going to the library, where would you go?" ... It instead asks "would you prefer"... well, for me, "preference" is often motivated, but what they really want with that question is to know your preference in absence of specific motives. So while I always got the result of ENFP when taking those tests (and I certainly do identify with many of the qualities and desires of "champions"), when I take those tests again and consciously de-train myself from all of my rational motivations for my answers, my gut responses make me an INTP (inventor). You might also check out the Enneagram (I'm an iconoclast in that scheme).
So hopefully this helps shed some light on what they're talking about when they say that these personality assessments could have damaging effects if they're used as diagnostics in making decisions or planning future strategies... For example, I might have seen the ENFP result and planned for a career in a field for which ENFPs are very well suited (customer service?)... and ended up fighting an uphill battle with myself because my natural inclination is to be an inventor. I ended up a computer programmer, so that didn't happen in my case, but it could have.
I will say that I worked for an ISTJ some years ago (he was the lead programmer)... damn did we clash...
ike
http://www.woohooligan.com
http://smolderingremains.deviantart.com
http://datafaucet.riaforge.org
INTJ here!!
I think that I've been fortunate to take the MBPI at times when I had nothing at stake, and I was still between 18 and 30 each time I took it and it came out the same. I would worry about conditioned responses now, just because I'm almost 50, and if I was taking it to find a job, I know it would look different.
I do recall the proctor giving stats out on each of the 16 types, and INTJ was REALLY rare...like "alien" rare, even moreso for a woman.
Go figure, Malcolm!
Okay, that unabomber thing was funny as hell!! Sad, but true.
AG
Geek-A-Nerd Products & Services
Variable Outcomes
Ike
Thank you for a terrific and very interesting post.
Firstly, congratulations for having the courage to go to social events like parties.
I am just finishing writing a review of a book called Socialising for Success which will be the next text I review in the newsletter for July going out next week.
I chose a book on socialising because it is so important for someone in the workplace with AS, and I wanted to build some content on the site that is not specifically written for an AS audience.
The key message from the book for me was that, as a person with AS, you have to force yourself to attend these events - in other words what you have done.
Moving onto Myers-Briggs. You will have seen in my last post that I am working with a UK University to put together a transition programme for students with AS.
In the review of her book Employment for Individuals with Asperger Syndrome and non-Learning Disability, (see Publications) author Yvonna Last asserts that MB is unsuitable for people with As for reasons similar to those that you cite.
I am going to refer the contact at the University I am working with to your posting.
It would be interesting to hear if anyone else can suggest a different personality test that they feel is more suitable?
Thanks
Thanks for the comlement Malcolm. :)
The other thing I forgot to mention is that the same thing happened to me when I started looking at the couple of aspie quizzes that are available online. They are of course by no means an "objective" analysis, and certainly not grounds for a diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome, but their intent is to give you some idea of whether or not you might want to discuss it with a psychologist.
The first time or two I sped through them, giving my trained responses that are based on specific motives like knowing that I need to network... and then I saw a forum posting or the like from someone else on Tribe.net who had described basically the same thing, that because we learn coping skills as we get older (because AS doesn't compromise our "adaptability"), our answers on quizzes like that are apt not to be "gut response" like they're sometimes supposed to be.
And because the quiz-makers often don't realize that they might need to be very specific in outlining the fact that they want a "gut response" rather than a conditioned response, we default to our conditioned response and get a somewhat distorted result. So the first few times I took an aspie quiz, the result was somewhere between "quirky but within the normal range" and "mild aspie tendencies". When I de-trained myself and gave my genuine gut responses to the same questions though, the result was somewhere between "you have typical aspie qualities" and "it is very likely you have Asperger Syndrome".
In retrospect that may be an important point too because these were tests that were written by people who actually want to help people with AS, yet I don't recall their being prefaced with any kind of instructions about avoiding conditioned responses. That may be something that the aspie quiz designers also simply overlooked when creating them in the same way that Meyers-Briggs or Kiersey seem to assume people's responses will be natural responses.
Unless I'm misremembering the test instructions for Meyers-Briggs, which could also be the case.
ike
http://www.woohooligan.com
http://smolderingremains.deviantart.com
http://datafaucet.riaforge.org
Conditioned Responses
I was very interested to read the comment conditioned responses.
I am going to post elsewhere in another comment - Communication maybe - because when under pressure I give "conditioned responses".
That was also longer than I
That was also longer than I planned. (As is typical of me.) :)
ike
Experience with personality tests at work
I never took a personality test at work or even for employment purposes. The only times I took these type of tests were when I had to see a psychologist or when I was in Special Ed (When I was younger). Even though I'm a Psychology major I have to say I don't have a good knowledge of these types of tests. I never even heard of the Myers-Briggs Test before.
Myers-Briggs
Myers is a very established personality profiling methodology. It has been around a long time - since the 1920's I think.
It tests your response to certain issues to ascertain where you stand along the introvert/extrovert gaugeline.
I found it very useful though I undertook it before I found out about my AS.
I was slightly surprised therefore when the author stated that it was an inappropriate mechanism for someone with AS which is why I made the posting.
It did give me an initial insight into my more introverted profile and how that may relate to my job requirements.
Its been a while since I did
Its been a while since I did the Myers-Briggs, although it was for employee review purposes. Basically, if one were to answer truthfully, we come off sounding like the Unabomber. Highly anti-social and yet extremely intelligent and knowledgeable within our field. The other problem with it, for me at least, is that it was very easy to "read". Meaning I could have come up with whatever profile I wanted.
One example I remember was the extrovert/introvert aspect. While I would rather be alone, if I have to be social I can although at a tremendous energy cost. If I have to be too social at work, when I get home I'm so drained that I have nothing left for my family. Sorry co-workers, I love my family more than you so you get the short end of the stick. However, I knew the company was very big on "camaraderie" so I fudged some of the answers to soften my introvertedness somewhat.
So for my manger, Myers-Briggs was worthless. In a situation where the testee felt comfortable answering truthfully, I would think Myers-Briggs would be helpful in identifying AS.
Redaing Between the Lines
Thank you for the insight.
I too am always a little suspicious of these tests because anyone with a modicum of intelligence can do what you say and "read them".
As mentioned previously, I am working with a UK University at the moment on a Transition Programme for students.
Myers-Briggs was suggested as part of this but we are also trying to locate alternatives.
Can anyone say anymore about Kiersey - I have never heard about if before and know nothing about it?
Much of the socialising
Much of the socialising where I work involves drinking. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a physical tolerance to drink so that rules out most of these things. Lack of transport is another reason I can't attend many work functions. I usually go to any lunches that are held within my section though so I think I am doing as much as humanly possible.
A trick I learned on
A trick I learned on drinking. Drink a beer which comes in a dark bottle, such as Guiness or Coors. Drink it as fast or as slow as you want, no one can tell how much is in the bottle. If you finish it and they are going for another round, just continue to occasionally suck on the empty bottle. Once they've put away 2 or 3, you can even switch to coke and they will assume there's bourbon in it.
A man that works for my dad refuses to eat food that other people cook. So when they have company lunches or cookouts, he quietly eats whatever he brought then joins in the after-meal conversation. It hasn't seemed to hurt his career in the slightest. Everyone thinks him a little odd, but he's very good at what he does and he socializes just enough so that they know he isn't about to go postal.
Sounds like a good idea. I
Sounds like a good idea. I just don't have anything to say when the subject turns to how drunk people got and how sick they were and what kinds of stuff they did when they were blotto. Some thought I was a wowser and a snob but it was more the case that I couldn't relate to that kind of talk.
Transport is usually an issue when there are any functions outside of work. I don't drive and there aren't always buses at the right time and taxis are okay if it isn't too far but often it is.
Non Alcohol
I think there is nothing wrong in drinking soft drinks, especially if you are drving. In fact, it is a good excuse not to have to do so.
I think we have to be very careful about drinking alcohol in social-work settings. Because of its capacity to calm etc, there is a real danger that it can "loosen the tongue" too much.
I notice that my publisher Jessica Kingsley has just published a book on the subject: "Asperger Syndrome & Alcohol" (ISBN: 9781843106098).
I haven't read it, and doubt whether I will, but it clearly warrants enough attention for them to consider it worthwhile publishing and highlights, for me, the importance of being guarded about the subject.
Alcohol and work
Usually when I'm at a party at work I will occasionally drink a little, depending on what's there to drink. I try not to drink that much because I'm not really drinker and not a fan of alcohol in general (even though as I got older I started to tolerate it a little bit more). If I'm not up to drinking or don't like what's being offered then I stick with soft drinks. Even there are people in my work area that really like to drink I haven't seen anyone drunk yet. So far no one ever pushed me to drink alcohol or to drink more of it.
I'm sure it would feel awkward (I was never really drunk before) to feel drunk at the job even at a social event.
Malcolm, I have this book on order
Once I have read it thoroughly I will give you a brief review if it is of interest.
Book Review
Michael
That would be great thanks.
You could even do an actual book review for inclusion on the site and the next newsletter if you feel able?
Regards
Malcolm
Yes Ok
Malcolm, please e-mail me and I will reply/paste a 'word' review for you to post on the site and newsletter.